Episode 414 - "Placebo"?: No.

About this Episode

An interesting new book from Germany has just been translated into English and a review of it in the Times Literary Supplement (August 21, 2026) concludes with a most consequential sentence.

The book is entitled Soul Magic: A Century of Psychotherapy, and the author is Steve Ayan. The consequential sentence at the end of the review, which was written by Jack Goulder, is this:

"Ayan finishes with some reflections on the notion that the various different forms of psychotherapy all seem to work as well as each other, and that most of this is due to the placebo effect of there being a kindly listener in the room".

Now there are at least two big ideas here, with strong practical effects:

The first is that in practice almost all forms of psychotherapy work the same.

(But hey, what about John and Yoko, and Carl Jung, and Brian Wilson, and ... PZ... and you? The author levels the playing field!) Moreover, he credits "kindly listening" to their shared (albeit flattened) success. That is a huge conclusion, with enormous possible consequences.

But second, Ayan believes that "kindly listening" is a placebo. That is to say, kindly listening is sort of a cover for nourishing peace of mind, but it is not a cure! So "psychotherapy", its 'success' rooted in simply the possibility of a troubled soul's being listened to, is not really about healing. It is sort of a cover, for a secondary effect rather than a primary one.

This podcast considers Ayan's rather stunning conclusion -- both its relativizing impact, and its diminishing of what actually goes on within a sufferer by means of "kindly listening".

PZ disagrees with the latter point. Based on a near lifetime of practical experience, he disagrees with the latter point. He'll wish to quote a classic song here: Roxy Music's "More Than This" (1982). You'll see.

(Oh, and didn't The Clash do a song once entitled "Kindly Listener" -- or was it Dave Mason? Or Talk Talk maybe?) LUV U.